BOOK III.

[Sidenote: _Republic III._ Socrates, Adeimantus.]

[Sidenote: The discouraging lessons of mythology.]

*386A* Such then, I said, are our principles of theology--some tales are

to be told, and others are not to be told to our disciples from their

youth upwards, if we mean them to honour the gods and their parents, and

to value friendship with one another.

Yes; and I think that our principles are right, he said.

But if they are to be courageous, must they not learn other lessons

besides these, and lessons of such a kind as will take *386B* away the

fear of death? Can any man be courageous who has the fear of death in him?

Certainly not, he said.

And can he be fearless of death, or will he choose death in battle rather

than defeat and slavery, who believes the world below to be real and

terrible?

Impossible.

[Sidenote: The description of the world below in Homer.]

Then we must assume a control over the narrators of this class of tales as

well as over the others, and beg them not simply to revile but rather to

commend the world below, *386C* intimating to them that their descriptions

are untrue, and will do harm to our future warriors.

That will be our duty, he said.

[Sidenote: Such tales to be rejected.]

Then, I said, we shall have to obliterate many obnoxious passages,

beginning with the verses,

'I would rather be a serf on the land of a poor and portionless man than

rule over all the dead who have come to nought[1].'

We must also expunge the verse, which tells us how Pluto feared,

*386D* 'Lest the mansions grim and squalid which the gods abhor should

be seen both of mortals and immortals[2].' {69}

And again:--

'O heavens! verily in the house of Hades there is soul and ghostly form

but no mind at all[3]!'

Again of Tiresias:--

'[To him even after death did Persephone grant mind,] that he alone

should be wise; but the other souls are flitting shades[4].'

Again:--

'The soul flying from the limbs had gone to Hades, lamenting her fate,

leaving manhood and youth[5].'

Again:--

*387A* 'And the soul, with shrilling cry, passed like smoke beneath the

earth[6].'

And,--

'As bats in hollow of mystic cavern, whenever any of them has dropped

out of the string and falls from the rock, fly shrilling and cling to

one another, so did they with shrilling cry hold together as they

moved[7].'

*387B* And we must beg Homer and the other poets not to be angry if we

strike out these and similar passages, not because they are unpoetical, or

unattractive to the popular ear, but because the greater the poetical

charm of them, the less are they meet for the ears of boys and men who are

meant to be free, and who should fear slavery more than death.

[Footnote 1: Od. xi. 489.]

[Footnote 2: Il. xx. 64.]

[Footnote 3: Il. xxiii. 103.]

[Footnote 4: Od. x. 495.]

[Footnote 5: Il. xvi. 856.]

[Footnote 6: Ib. xxiii. 100.]

[Footnote 7: Od. xxiv. 6.]

Undoubtedly.

Also we shall have to reject all the terrible and appalling names which

describe the world below--Cocytus and Styx, *387C* ghosts under the earth,

and sapless shades, and any similar words of which the very mention causes

a shudder to pass through the inmost soul of him who hears them. I do not

say that these horrible stories may not have a use of some kind; but there

is a danger that the nerves of our guardians may be rendered too excitable

and effeminate by them.

There is a real danger, he said.

Then we must have no more of them.

True.

Another and a nobler strain must be composed and sung by us. {70}

Clearly.

*387D* And shall we proceed to get rid of the weepings and wailings of

famous men?

They will go with the rest.

[Sidenote: The effeminate and pitiful strains of famous men, and yet more

of the gods, must also be banished.]

But shall we be right in getting rid of them? Reflect: our principle is

that the good man will not consider death terrible to any other good man

who is his comrade.

Yes; that is our principle.

And therefore he will not sorrow for his departed friend as though he had

suffered anything terrible?

He will not.

Such an one, as we further maintain, is sufficient for himself *387E* and

his own happiness, and therefore is least in need of other men.

True, he said.

And for this reason the loss of a son or brother, or the deprivation of

fortune, is to him of all men least terrible.

Assuredly.

And therefore he will be least likely to lament, and will bear with the

greatest equanimity any misfortune of this sort which may befall him.

Yes, he will feel such a misfortune far less than another.

Then we shall be right in getting rid of the lamentations of famous men,

and making them over to women (and not *388A* even to women who are good

for anything), or to men of a baser sort, that those who are being

educated by us to be the defenders of their country may scorn to do the

like.

That will be very right.

[Sidenote: Such are the laments of Achilles, and Priam, and of Zeus when

he beholds the fate of Hector or Sarpedon.]

Then we will once more entreat Homer and the other poets not to depict

Achilles[8], who is the son of a goddess, first lying on his side, then on

his back, and then on his face; then starting up and sailing in a frenzy

along the shores of *388B* the barren sea; now taking the sooty ashes in

both his hands[9] and pouring them over his head, or weeping and wailing

in the various modes which Homer has delineated. Nor should he describe

Priam the kinsman of the gods as praying and beseeching,

'Rolling in the dirt, calling each man loudly by his name[10].' {71}

Still more earnestly will we beg of him at all events not to introduce the

gods lamenting and saying,

*388C* 'Alas! my misery! Alas! that I bore the bravest to my

sorrow[11].'

But if he must introduce the gods, at any rate let him not dare so

completely to misrepresent the greatest of the gods, as to make him say--

'O heavens! with my eyes verily I behold a dear friend of mine chased

round and round the city, and my heart is sorrowful[12].'

Or again:--

'Woe is me that I am fated to have Sarpedon, dearest of *388D* men to

me, subdued at the hands of Patroclus the son of Menoetius[13].'

For if, my sweet Adeimantus, our youth seriously listen to such unworthy

representations of the gods, instead of laughing at them as they ought,

hardly will any of them deem that he himself, being but a man, can be

dishonoured by similar actions; neither will he rebuke any inclination

which may arise in his mind to say and do the like. And instead of having

any shame or self-control, he will be always whining and lamenting on

slight occasions.

[Footnote 8: Il. xxiv. 10.]

[Footnote 9: Ib. xviii. 23.]

[Footnote 10: Ib. xxii. 414.]

[Footnote 11: Il. xviii. 54.]

[Footnote 12: Ib. xxii. 168.]

[Footnote 13: Ib. xvi. 433.]

*388E* Yes, he said, that is most true.

Yes, I replied; but that surely is what ought not to be, as the argument

has just proved to us; and by that proof we must abide until it is

disproved by a better.

It ought not to be.

[Sidenote: Neither are the guardians to be encouraged to laugh by the

example of the gods.]

Neither ought our guardians to be given to laughter. For a fit of laughter

which has been indulged to excess almost always produces a violent

reaction.

So I believe.

Then persons of worth, even if only mortal men, must not be represented as

overcome by laughter, and still less must such a representation of the

gods be allowed.

*389A* Still less of the gods, as you say, he replied.

Then we shall not suffer such an expression to be used about the gods as

that of Homer when he describes how

'Inextinguishable laughter arose among the blessed gods, when they saw

Hephaestus bustling about the mansion[14].'

On your views, we must not admit them. {72}

[Footnote 14: Ib. i. 599.]

On my views, if you like to father them on me; that we *389B* must not

admit them is certain.

[Sidenote: Our youth must be truthful,]

Again, truth should be highly valued; if, as we were saying, a lie is

useless to the gods, and useful only as a medicine to men, then the use of

such medicines should be restricted to physicians; private individuals

have no business with them.

Clearly not, he said.

Then if any one at all is to have the privilege of lying, the rulers of

the State should be the persons; and they, in their dealings either with

enemies or with their own citizens, may be allowed to lie for the public

good. But nobody else should *389C* meddle with anything of the kind; and

although the rulers have this privilege, for a private man to lie to them

in return is to be deemed a more heinous fault than for the patient or the

pupil of a gymnasium not to speak the truth about his own bodily illnesses

to the physician or to the trainer, or for a sailor not to tell the

captain what is happening about the ship and the rest of the crew, and how

things are going with himself or his fellow sailors.

Most true, he said.

*389D* If, then, the ruler catches anybody beside himself lying in the

State,

'Any of the craftsmen, whether he be priest or physician or

carpenter[15],'

he will punish him for introducing a practice which is equally subversive

and destructive of ship or State.

[Footnote 15: Od. xvii. 383 sq.]

Most certainly, he said, if our idea of the State is ever carried out[16].

[Footnote 16: Or, 'if his words are accompanied by actions.']

[Sidenote: and also temperate.]

In the next place our youth must be temperate?

Certainly.

Are not the chief elements of temperance, speaking *389E* generally,

obedience to commanders and self-control in sensual pleasures?

True.

Then we shall approve such language as that of Diomede in Homer,

'Friend, sit still and obey my word[17],' {73}

and the verses which follow,

'The Greeks marched breathing prowess[18], .... in silent awe of their

leaders[19],'

and other sentiments of the same kind.

[Footnote 17: Il. iv. 412.]

[Footnote 18: Od. iii. 8.]

[Footnote 19: Ib. iv. 431.]

We shall.

What of this line,

'O heavy with wine, who hast the eyes of a dog and the heart of a

stag[20],'

*390A* and of the words which follow? Would you say that these, or any

similar impertinences which private individuals are supposed to address to

their rulers, whether in verse or prose, are well or ill spoken?

[Footnote 20: Ib. i. 225.]

They are ill spoken.

They may very possibly afford some amusement, but they do not conduce to

temperance. And therefore they are likely to do harm to our young men--you

would agree with me there?

Yes.

[Sidenote: The praises of eating and drinking, and the tale of the

improper behaviour of Zeus and Here, are not to be repeated to the young.]

[Sidenote: The indecent tale of Ares and Aphrodite.]

And then, again, to make the wisest of men say that nothing in his opinion

is more glorious than

*390B* 'When the tables are full of bread and meat, and the cup-bearer

carries round wine which he draws from the bowl and pours into the

cups,[21]'

is it fit or conducive to temperance for a young man to hear such words?

Or the verse

'The saddest of fates is to die and meet destiny from hunger[22]'?

What would you say again to the tale of Zeus, who, while other gods and

men were asleep and he the only person *390C* awake, lay devising plans,

but forgot them all in a moment through his lust, and was so completely

overcome at the sight of Here that he would not even go into the hut, but

wanted to lie with her on the ground, declaring that he had never been in

such a state of rapture before, even when they first met one another

'Without the knowledge of their parents[23];' {74}

or that other tale of how Hephaestus, because of similar goings on, cast a

chain around Ares and Aphrodite[24]?

[Footnote 21: Ib. ix. 8.]

[Footnote 22: Ib. xii. 342.]

[Footnote 23: Il. xiv. 281.]

[Footnote 24: Od. viii. 266.]

Indeed, he said, I am strongly of opinion that they ought not to hear that

sort of thing.

[Sidenote: The opposite strain of endurance.]

*390D* But any deeds of endurance which are done or told by famous men,

these they ought to see and hear; as, for example, what is said in the

verses,

'He smote his breast, and thus reproached his heart, Endure, my heart;

far worse hast thou endured[25]!'

[Footnote 25: Ib. xx. 17.]

Certainly, he said.

In the next place, we must not let them be receivers of gifts or lovers of

money.

*390E* Certainly not.

[Sidenote: Condemnation of Achilles and Phoenix.]

Neither must we sing to them of

'Gifts persuading gods, and persuading reverend kings[26].'

Neither is Phoenix, the tutor of Achilles, to be approved or deemed to

have given his pupil good counsel when he told him that he should take the

gifts of the Greeks and assist them[27]; but that without a gift he should

not lay aside his anger. Neither will we believe or acknowledge Achilles

himself to have been such a lover of money that he took Agamemnon's gifts,

or that when he had received payment he restored the dead body of Hector,

but that without payment he was unwilling to do so[28].

[Footnote 26: Quoted by Suidas as attributed to Hesiod.]

[Footnote 27: Il. ix. 515.]

[Footnote 28: Ib. xxiv. 175.]

*391A* Undoubtedly, he said, these are not sentiments which can be

approved.

[Sidenote: The impious behaviour of Achilles to Apollo and the river-gods;

his cruelty.]

Loving Homer as I do[29], I hardly like to say that in attributing these

feelings to Achilles, or in believing that they are truly attributed to

him, he is guilty of downright impiety. As little can I believe the

narrative of his insolence to Apollo, where he says,

'Thou hast wronged me, O far-darter, most abominable of deities. Verily

I would be even with thee, if I had only the power[30];'

*391B* or his insubordination to the river-god[31], on whose divinity he

is ready to lay hands; or his offering to the dead Patroclus {75} of his

own hair[32], which had been previously dedicated to the other river-god

Spercheius, and that he actually performed this vow; or that he dragged

Hector round the tomb of Patroclus[33], and slaughtered the captives at

the pyre[34]; of all this I cannot believe that he was guilty, any more

than I can *391C* allow our citizens to believe that he, the wise

Cheiron's pupil, the son of a goddess and of Peleus who was the gentlest

of men and third in descent from Zeus, was so disordered in his wits as to

be at one time the slave of two seemingly inconsistent passions, meanness,

not untainted by avarice, combined with overweening contempt of gods and

men.

[Footnote 29: Cf. _infra_, x. 595.]

[Footnote 30: Il. xxii. 15 sq.]

[Footnote 31: Ib. xxi. 130, 223 sq.]

[Footnote 32: Il. xxiii. 151.]

[Footnote 33: Ib. xxii. 394.]

[Footnote 34: Ib. xxiii. 175.]

You are quite right, he replied.

[Sidenote: The tale of Theseus and Peirithous.]

And let us equally refuse to believe, or allow to be repeated, the tale of

Theseus son of Poseidon, or of Peirithous *391D* son of Zeus, going forth

as they did to perpetrate a horrid rape; or of any other hero or son of a

god daring to do such impious and dreadful things as they falsely ascribe

to them in our day: and let us further compel the poets to declare either

that these acts were not done by them, or that they were not the sons of

gods;--both in the same breath they shall not be permitted to affirm. We

will not have them trying to persuade our youth that the gods are the

authors of evil, and that heroes are no better than men--sentiments *391E*

which, as we were saying, are neither pious nor true, for we have already

proved that evil cannot come from the gods.

Assuredly not.

[Sidenote: The bad effect of these mythological tales upon the young.]

And further they are likely to have a bad effect on those who hear them;

for everybody will begin to excuse his own vices when he is convinced that

similar wickednesses are always being perpetrated by--

'The kindred of the gods, the relatives of Zeus, whose ancestral altar,

the altar of Zeus, is aloft in air on the peak of Ida,'

and who have

'the blood of deities yet flowing in their veins[35].'

And therefore let us put an end to such tales, lest they *392A* engender

laxity of morals among the young. {76}

[Footnote 35: From the Niobe of Aeschylus.]

By all means, he replied.

But now that we are determining what classes of subjects are or are not to

be spoken of, let us see whether any have been omitted by us. The manner

in which gods and demigods and heroes and the world below should be

treated has been already laid down.

Very true.

[Sidenote: Misstatements of the poets about men.]

And what shall we say about men? That is clearly the remaining portion of

our subject.

Clearly so.

But we are not in a condition to answer this question at present, my

friend.

Why not?

Because, if I am not mistaken, we shall have to say that *392B* about men

poets and story-tellers are guilty of making the gravest misstatements

when they tell us that wicked men are often happy, and the good miserable;

and that injustice is profitable when undetected, but that justice is a

man's own loss and another's gain--these things we shall forbid them to

utter, and command them to sing and say the opposite.

To be sure we shall, he replied.

But if you admit that I am right in this, then I shall maintain that you

have implied the principle for which we have been all along contending.

I grant the truth of your inference.

*392C* That such things are or are not to be said about men is a question

which we cannot determine until we have discovered what justice is, and

how naturally advantageous to the possessor, whether he seem to be just or

not.

Most true, he said.

Enough of the subjects of poetry: let us now speak of the style; and when

this has been considered, both matter and manner will have been completely

treated.

I do not understand what you mean, said Adeimantus.

*392D* Then I must make you understand; and perhaps I may be more

intelligible if I put the matter in this way. You are aware, I suppose,

that all mythology and poetry is a narration of events, either past,

present, or to come?

Certainly, he replied. {77}

And narration may be either simple narration, or imitation, or a union of

the two?

That again, he said, I do not quite understand.

[Sidenote: Analysis of the dramatic element in Epic poetry.]

I fear that I must be a ridiculous teacher when I have so much difficulty

in making myself apprehended. Like a bad speaker, therefore, I will not

take the whole of the subject, *392E* but will break a piece off in

illustration of my meaning. You know the first lines of the Iliad, in

which the poet says that *393A* Chryses prayed Agamemnon to release his

daughter, and that Agamemnon flew into a passion with him; whereupon

Chryses, failing of his object, invoked the anger of the God against the

Achaeans. Now as far as these lines,

'And he prayed all the Greeks, but especially the two sons of Atreus,

the chiefs of the people,'

the poet is speaking in his own person; he never leads us to suppose that

he is any one else. But in what follows he takes the person of Chryses,

and then he does all that he can *393B* to make us believe that the

speaker is not Homer, but the aged priest himself. And in this double form

he has cast the entire narrative of the events which occurred at Troy and

in Ithaca and throughout the Odyssey.

Yes.

And a narrative it remains both in the speeches which the poet recites

from time to time and in the intermediate passages?

Quite true.

[Sidenote: Epic poetry has an element of imitation in the speeches; the

rest is simple narrative.]

*393C* But when the poet speaks in the person of another, may we not say

that he assimilates his style to that of the person who, as he informs

you, is going to speak?

Certainly.

And this assimilation of himself to another, either by the use of voice or

gesture, is the imitation of the person whose character he assumes?

Of course.

Then in this case the narrative of the poet may be said to proceed by way

of imitation?

Very true.

[Sidenote: Illustrations from the beginning of the Iliad.]

Or, if the poet everywhere appears and never conceals *393D* himself, then

again the imitation is dropped, and his poetry becomes simple narration.

However, in order that I may {78} make my meaning quite clear, and that

you may no more say, 'I don't understand,' I will show how the change

might be effected. If Homer had said, 'The priest came, having his

daughter's ransom in his hands, supplicating the Achaeans, and above all

the kings;' and then if, instead of speaking in the person of Chryses, he

had continued in his own person, the words would have been, not imitation,

but simple narration. The passage would have run as follows (I am no poet,

*393E* and therefore I drop the metre), 'The priest came and prayed the

gods on behalf of the Greeks that they might capture Troy and return

safely home, but begged that they would give him back his daughter, and

take the ransom which he brought, and respect the God. Thus he spoke, and

the other Greeks revered the priest and assented. But Agamemnon was wroth,

and bade him depart and not come again, lest the staff and chaplets of the

God should be of no avail to him--the daughter of Chryses should not be

released, he said--she should grow old with him in Argos. And then he told

him to go away and not to provoke him, if he intended to get home

unscathed. And the old man went away in fear and *394A* silence, and, when

he had left the camp, he called upon Apollo by his many names, reminding

him of everything which he had done pleasing to him, whether in building

his temples, or in offering sacrifice, and praying that his good deeds

might be returned to him, and that the Achaeans might expiate his tears by

the arrows of the god,'--and so on. *394B* In this way the whole becomes

simple narrative.

I understand, he said.

[Sidenote: Tragedy and Comedy are wholly imitative; dithyrambic and some

other kinds of poetry are devoid of imitation. Epic poetry is a

combination of the two.]

Or you may suppose the opposite case--that the intermediate passages are

omitted, and the dialogue only left.

That also, he said, I understand; you mean, for example, as in tragedy.

You have conceived my meaning perfectly; and if I mistake not, what you

failed to apprehend before is now made *394C* clear to you, that poetry

and mythology are, in some cases, wholly imitative--instances of this are

supplied by tragedy and comedy; there is likewise the opposite style, in

which the poet is the only speaker--of this the dithyramb affords the best

example; and the combination of both is found in epic, and in several

other styles of poetry. Do I take you with me? {79}

Yes, he said; I see now what you meant.

I will ask you to remember also what I began by saying, that we had done

with the subject and might proceed to the style.

Yes, I remember.

*394D* In saying this, I intended to imply that we must come to an

understanding about the mimetic art,--whether the poets, in narrating

their stories, are to be allowed by us to imitate, and if so, whether in

whole or in part, and if the latter, in what parts; or should all

imitation be prohibited?

You mean, I suspect, to ask whether tragedy and comedy shall be admitted

into our State?

[Sidenote: A hint about Homer (cp. _infra_, bk. x.)]

Yes, I said; but there may be more than this in question: I really do not

know as yet, but whither the argument may blow, thither we go.

And go we will, he said.

[Sidenote: Our guardians ought not to be imitators, for one man can only

do one thing well;]

*394E* Then, Adeimantus, let me ask you whether our guardians ought to be

imitators; or rather, has not this question been decided by the rule

already laid down that one man can only do one thing well, and not many;

and that if he attempt many, he will altogether fail of gaining much

reputation in any?

Certainly.

And this is equally true of imitation; no one man can imitate many things

as well as he would imitate a single one?

He cannot.

*395A* Then the same person will hardly be able to play a serious part in

life, and at the same time to be an imitator and imitate many other parts

as well; for even when two species of imitation are nearly allied, the

same persons cannot succeed in both, as, for example, the writers of

tragedy and comedy--did you not just now call them imitations?

Yes, I did; and you are right in thinking that the same persons cannot

succeed in both.

Any more than they can be rhapsodists and actors at once?

True.

*395B* Neither are comic and tragic actors the same; yet all these things

are but imitations.

They are so.

[Sidenote: he cannot even imitate many things.]

And human nature, Adeimantus, appears to have been {80} coined into yet

smaller pieces, and to be as incapable of imitating many things well, as

of performing well the actions of which the imitations are copies.

Quite true, he replied.

If then we adhere to our original notion and bear in mind that our

guardians, setting aside every other business, are to *395C* dedicate

themselves wholly to the maintenance of freedom in the State, making this

their craft, and engaging in no work which does not bear on this end, they

ought not to practise or imitate anything else; if they imitate at all,

they should imitate from youth upward only those characters which are

suitable to their profession--the courageous, temperate, holy, free, and

the like; but they should not depict or be skilful at imitating any kind

of illiberality or baseness, lest from imitation they should come to be

what they imitate. Did *395D* you never observe how imitations, beginning

in early youth and continuing far into life, at length grow into habits

and become a second nature, affecting body, voice, and mind?

Yes, certainly, he said.

[Sidenote: Imitations which are of the degrading sort.]

Then, I said, we will not allow those for whom we profess a care and of

whom we say that they ought to be good men, to imitate a woman, whether

young or old, quarrelling with her husband, or striving and vaunting

against the gods in *395E* conceit of her happiness, or when she is in

affliction, or sorrow, or weeping; and certainly not one who is in

sickness, love, or labour.

Very right, he said.

Neither must they represent slaves, male or female, performing the offices

of slaves?

They must not.

And surely not bad men, whether cowards or any others, who do the reverse

of what we have just been prescribing, who scold or mock or revile one

another in drink or out of drink, or who in any other manner sin against

themselves and their neighbours in word or deed, as the manner of such is.

*396A* Neither should they be trained to imitate the action or speech of

men or women who are mad or bad; for madness, like vice, is to be known

but not to be practised or imitated.

Very true, he replied. {81}

Neither may they imitate smiths or other artificers, or *396B* oarsmen, or

boatswains, or the like?

How can they, he said, when they are not allowed to apply their minds to

the callings of any of these?

Nor may they imitate the neighing of horses, the bellowing of bulls, the

murmur of rivers and roll of the ocean, thunder, and all that sort of

thing?

Nay, he said, if madness be forbidden, neither may they copy the behaviour

of madmen.

You mean, I said, if I understand you aright, that there is one sort of

narrative style which may be employed by a truly *396C* good man when he

has anything to say, and that another sort will be used by a man of an

opposite character and education.

And which are these two sorts? he asked.

[Sidenote: Imitations which may be encouraged.]

Suppose, I answered, that a just and good man in the course of a narration

comes on some saying or action of another good man,--I should imagine that

he will like to personate him, and will not be ashamed of this sort of

imitation: he will be most ready to play the part of the good *396D* man

when he is acting firmly and wisely; in a less degree when he is overtaken

by illness or love or drink, or has met with any other disaster. But when

he comes to a character which is unworthy of him, he will not make a study

of that; he will disdain such a person, and will assume his likeness, if

at all, for a moment only when he is performing some good action; at other

times he will be ashamed to play a part which he has never practised, nor

will he like to fashion and frame himself after the baser models; he feels

the *396E* employment of such an art, unless in jest, to be beneath him,

and his mind revolts at it.

So I should expect, he replied.

Then he will adopt a mode of narration such as we have illustrated out of

Homer, that is to say, his style will be both imitative and narrative; but

there will be very little of the former, and a great deal of the latter.

Do you agree?

Certainly, he said; that is the model which such a speaker *397A* must

necessarily take.

[Sidenote: Imitations which are to be prohibited.]

But there is another sort of character who will narrate anything, and, the

worse he is, the more unscrupulous he will be; nothing will be too bad for

him: and he will be ready to {82} imitate anything, not as a joke, but in

right good earnest, and before a large company. As I was just now saying,

he will attempt to represent the roll of thunder, the noise of wind and

hail, or the creaking of wheels, and pulleys, and the various sounds of

flutes, pipes, trumpets, and all sorts of instruments: he will bark like a

dog, bleat like *397B* a sheep, or crow like a cock; his entire art will

consist in imitation of voice and gesture, and there will be very little

narration.

That, he said, will be his mode of speaking.

These, then, are the two kinds of style?

Yes.

[Sidenote: Two kinds of style--the one simple, the other multiplex. There

is also a third which is a combination of the two.]

And you would agree with me in saying that one of them is simple and has

but slight changes; and if the harmony and rhythm are also chosen for

their simplicity, the result is that the speaker, if he speaks correctly,

is always pretty much the same in style, and he will keep within the

limits of a single harmony (for the changes are not great), and in *397C*

like manner he will make use of nearly the same rhythm?

That is quite true, he said.

Whereas the other requires all sorts of harmonies and all sorts of

rhythms, if the music and the style are to correspond, because the style

has all sorts of changes.

That is also perfectly true, he replied.

And do not the two styles, or the mixture of the two, comprehend all

poetry, and every form of expression in words? No one can say anything

except in one or other of them or in both together.

They include all, he said.

[Sidenote: The simple style alone is to be admitted in the State; the

attractions of the mixed style are acknowledged, but it appears to be

excluded.]

*397D* And shall we receive into our State all the three styles, or one

only of the two unmixed styles? or would you include the mixed?

I should prefer only to admit the pure imitator of virtue.

Yes, I said, Adeimantus, but the mixed style is also very charming: and

indeed the pantomimic, which is the opposite of the one chosen by you, is

the most popular style with children and their attendants, and with the

world in general.

I do not deny it.

But I suppose you would argue that such a style is unsuitable *397E* to

our State, in which human nature is not twofold or manifold, for one man

plays one part only? {83}

Yes; quite unsuitable.

And this is the reason why in our State, and in our State only, we shall

find a shoemaker to be a shoemaker and not a pilot also, and a husbandman

to be a husbandman and not a dicast also, and a soldier a soldier and not

a trader also, and the same throughout?

True, he said.

[Sidenote: The pantomimic artist is to receive great honours, but he is to

be sent out of the country.]

*398A* And therefore when any one of these pantomimic gentlemen, who are

so clever that they can imitate anything, comes to us, and makes a

proposal to exhibit himself and his poetry, we will fall down and worship

him as a sweet and holy and wonderful being; but we must also inform him

that in our State such as he are not permitted to exist; the law will not

allow them. And so when we have anointed him with myrrh, and set a garland

of wool upon his head, we shall send him away to another city. For we mean

to employ for *398B* our souls' health the rougher and severer poet or

story-teller, who will imitate the style of the virtuous only, and will

follow those models which we prescribed at first when we began the

education of our soldiers.

We certainly will, he said, if we have the power.

Then now, my friend, I said, that part of music or literary education

which relates to the story or myth may be considered to be finished; for

the matter and manner have both been discussed.

I think so too, he said.

*398C* Next in order will follow melody and song.

That is obvious.

Every one can see already what we ought to say about them, if we are to be

consistent with ourselves.

[Sidenote: Socrates, Glaucon.]

I fear, said Glaucon, laughing, that the word 'every one' hardly includes

me, for I cannot at the moment say what they should be; though I may

guess.

At any rate you can tell that a song or ode has three *398D* parts--the

words, the melody, and the rhythm; that degree of knowledge I may

presuppose?

Yes, he said; so much as that you may.

And as for the words, there will surely be no difference between words

which are and which are not set to music; {84} both will conform to the

same laws, and these have been already determined by us?

Yes.

[Sidenote: Melody and rhythm.]

And the melody and rhythm will depend upon the words?

Certainly.

We were saying, when we spoke of the subject-matter, that we had no need

of lamentation and strains of sorrow?

True.

*398E* And which are the harmonies expressive of sorrow? You are musical,

and can tell me.

The harmonies which you mean are the mixed or tenor Lydian, and the

full-toned or bass Lydian, and such like.

These then, I said, must be banished; even to women who have a character

to maintain they are of no use, and much less to men.

Certainly.

In the next place, drunkenness and softness and indolence are utterly

unbecoming the character of our guardians.

Utterly unbecoming.

[Sidenote: The relaxed melodies or harmonies are the Ionian and the

Lydian. These are to be banished.]

And which are the soft or drinking harmonies?

*399A* The Ionian, he replied, and the Lydian; they are termed 'relaxed.'

Well, and are these of any military use?

Quite the reverse, he replied; and if so the Dorian and the Phrygian are

the only ones which you have left.

I answered: Of the harmonies I know nothing, but I want to have one

warlike, to sound the note or accent which a brave man utters in the hour

of danger and stern resolve, or when his cause is failing, and he is going

to wounds or *399B* death or is overtaken by some other evil, and at every

such crisis meets the blows of fortune with firm step and a determination

to endure; and another to be used by him in times of peace and freedom of

action, when there is no pressure of necessity, and he is seeking to

persuade God by prayer, or man by instruction and admonition, or on the

other hand, when he is expressing his willingness to yield to persuasion

or entreaty or admonition, and which represents him when by prudent

conduct he has attained his end, not carried away by his success, but

acting moderately and wisely *399C* under the circumstances, and

acquiescing in the event. These {85} two harmonies I ask you to leave; the

strain of necessity and the strain of freedom, the strain of the

unfortunate and the strain of the fortunate, the strain of courage, and

the strain of temperance; these, I say, leave.

And these, he replied, are the Dorian and Phrygian harmonies of which

I was just now speaking.

[Sidenote: The Dorian and Phrygian are to be retained.]

Then, I said, if these and these only are to be used in our songs and

melodies, we shall not want multiplicity of notes or a panharmonic scale?

I suppose not.

Then we shall not maintain the artificers of lyres with three corners and

complex scales, or the makers of any other *399D* many-stringed

curiously-harmonised instruments?

Certainly not.

[Sidenote: Musical instruments--which are to be rejected and which

allowed?]

But what do you say to flute-makers and flute-players? Would you admit

them into our State when you reflect that in this composite use of harmony

the flute is worse than all the stringed instruments put together; even

the panharmonic music is only an imitation of the flute?

Clearly not.

There remain then only the lyre and the harp for use in the city, and the

shepherds may have a pipe in the country.

That is surely the conclusion to be drawn from the argument.

*399E* The preferring of Apollo and his instruments to Marsyas and his

instruments is not at all strange, I said.

Not at all, he replied.

And so, by the dog of Egypt, we have been unconsciously purging the State,

which not long ago we termed luxurious.

And we have done wisely, he replied.

Then let us now finish the purgation, I said. Next in order to harmonies,

rhythms will naturally follow, and they should be subject to the same

rules, for we ought not to seek out complex systems of metre, or metres of

every kind, but rather to discover what rhythms are the expressions of

*400A* a courageous and harmonious life; and when we have found them, we

shall adapt the foot and the melody to words having a like spirit, not the

words to the foot and melody. To say what these rhythms are will be your

duty--you must teach me them, as you have already taught me the harmonies.

{86}

[Sidenote: Three kinds of rhythm as there are four notes of the

tetrachord.]

But, indeed, he replied, I cannot tell you. I only know that there are

some three principles of rhythm out of which metrical systems are framed,

just as in sounds there are four notes[36] out of which all the harmonies

are composed; that is an observation which I have made. But of what sort

of lives they are severally the imitations I am unable to say.

[Footnote 36: i.e. the four notes of the tetrachord.]

*400B* Then, I said, we must take Damon into our counsels; and he will

tell us what rhythms are expressive of meanness, or insolence, or fury, or

other unworthiness, and what are to be reserved for the expression of

opposite feelings. And I think that I have an indistinct recollection of

his mentioning a complex Cretic rhythm; also a dactylic or heroic, and he

arranged them in some manner which I do not quite understand, making the

rhythms equal in the rise and fall of the foot, long and short

alternating; and, unless I am mistaken, he spoke of an iambic as well as

of a trochaic rhythm, *400C* and assigned to them short and long

quantities.[37] Also in some cases he appeared to praise or censure the

movement of the foot quite as much as the rhythm; or perhaps a combination

of the two; for I am not certain what he meant. These matters, however, as

I was saying, had better be referred to Damon himself, for the analysis of

the subject would be difficult, you know?

[Footnote 37: Socrates expresses himself carelessly in accordance with his

assumed ignorance of the details of the subject. In the first part of the

sentence he appears to be speaking of paeonic rhythms which are in the

ratio of 3/2; in the second part, of dactylic and anapaestic rhythms,

which are in the ratio of 1/1; in the last clause, of iambic and trochaic

rhythms, which are in the ratio of 1/2 or 2/1.]

Rather so, I should say.

But there is no difficulty in seeing that grace or the absence of grace is

an effect of good or bad rhythm.

None at all.

[Sidenote: Rhythm and harmony follow style, and style is the expression of

the soul.]

*400D* And also that good and bad rhythm naturally assimilate to a good

and bad style; and that harmony and discord in like manner follow style;

for our principle is that rhythm and harmony are regulated by the words,

and not the words by them.

Just so, he said, they should follow the words.

And will not the words and the character of the style depend on the temper

of the soul? {87}

Yes.

And everything else on the style?

Yes.

[Sidenote: Simplicity the great first principle;]

Then beauty of style and harmony and grace and good *400E* rhythm depend

on simplicity,--I mean the true simplicity of a rightly and nobly ordered

mind and character, not that other simplicity which is only an euphemism

for folly?

Very true, he replied.

And if our youth are to do their work in life, must they not make these

graces and harmonies their perpetual aim?

They must.

[Sidenote: and a principle which is widely spread in nature and art.]

*401A* And surely the art of the painter and every other creative and

constructive art are full of them,--weaving, embroidery, architecture, and

every kind of manufacture; also nature, animal and vegetable,--in all of

them there is grace or the absence of grace. And ugliness and discord and

inharmonious motion are nearly allied to ill words and ill nature, as

grace and harmony are the twin sisters of goodness and virtue and bear

their likeness.

That is quite true, he said.

[Sidenote: Our citizens must grow up to manhood amidst impressions of

grace and beauty only; all ugliness and vice must be excluded.]

*401B* But shall our superintendence go no further, and are the poets only

to be required by us to express the image of the good in their works, on

pain, if they do anything else, of expulsion from our State? Or is the

same control to be extended to other artists, and are they also to be

prohibited from exhibiting the opposite forms of vice and intemperance and

meanness and indecency in sculpture and building and the other creative

arts; and is he who cannot conform to this rule of ours to be prevented

from practising his art in our State, lest the taste of our citizens be

corrupted by him? We would not have our guardians grow up amid images of

moral deformity, as in some noxious pasture, and there *401C* browse and

feed upon many a baneful herb and flower day by day, little by little,

until they silently gather a festering mass of corruption in their own

soul. Let our artists rather be those who are gifted to discern the true

nature of the beautiful and graceful; then will our youth dwell in a land

of health, amid fair sights and sounds, and receive the good in

everything; and beauty, the effluence of fair works, shall *401D* flow

into the eye and ear, like a health-giving breeze from a purer region, and

{88} insensibly draw the soul from earliest years into likeness and

sympathy with the beauty of reason.

There can be no nobler training than that, he replied.

[Sidenote: The power of imparting grace is possessed by harmony.]

And therefore, I said, Glaucon, musical training is a more potent

instrument than any other, because rhythm and harmony find their way into

the inward places of the soul, on which they mightily fasten, imparting

grace, and making the soul of him who is rightly educated graceful, or of

him who *401E* is ill-educated ungraceful; and also because he who has

received this true education of the inner being will most shrewdly

perceive omissions or faults in art and nature, and *402A* with a true

taste, while he praises and rejoices over and receives into his soul the

good, and becomes noble and good, he will justly blame and hate the bad,

now in the days of his youth, even before he is able to know the reason

why; and when reason comes he will recognise and salute the friend with

whom his education has made him long familiar.

Yes, he said, I quite agree with you in thinking that our youth should be

trained in music and on the grounds which you mention.

Just as in learning to read, I said, we were satisfied when we knew the

letters of the alphabet, which are very few, in all their recurring sizes

and combinations; not slighting them *402B* as unimportant whether they

occupy a space large or small, but everywhere eager to make them out; and

not thinking ourselves perfect in the art of reading until we recognise

them wherever they are found[38]:

[Footnote 38: Cp. _supra_, II. 368 D.]

True--

Or, as we recognise the reflection of letters in the water, or in a

mirror, only when we know the letters themselves; the same art and study

giving us the knowledge of both:

Exactly--

[Sidenote: The true musician must know the essential forms of virtue and

vice.]

Even so, as I maintain, neither we nor our guardians, whom *402C* we have

to educate, can ever become musical until we and they know the essential

forms of temperance, courage, liberality, magnificence, and their kindred,

as well as the contrary forms, in all their combinations, and can

recognise them and their images wherever they are found, not slighting

{89} them either in small things or great, but believing them all to be

within the sphere of one art and study.

Most assuredly.

[Sidenote: The harmony of soul and body the fairest of sights.]

*402D* And when a beautiful soul harmonizes with a beautiful form, and the

two are cast in one mould, that will be the fairest of sights to him who

has an eye to see it?

The fairest indeed.

And the fairest is also the loveliest?

That may be assumed.

And the man who has the spirit of harmony will be most in love with the

loveliest; but he will not love him who is of an inharmonious soul?

[Sidenote: The true lover will not mind defects of the person.]

That is true, he replied, if the deficiency be in his soul; but if there

be any merely bodily defect in another he will *402E* be patient of it,

and will love all the same.

I perceive, I said, that you have or have had experiences of this sort,

and I agree. But let me ask you another question: Has excess of pleasure

any affinity to temperance?

How can that be? he replied; pleasure deprives a man of the use of his

faculties quite as much as pain.

Or any affinity to virtue in general?

*403A* None whatever.

Any affinity to wantonness and intemperance?

Yes, the greatest.

And is there any greater or keener pleasure than that of sensual love?

No, nor a madder.

[Sidenote: True love is temperate and harmonious.]

Whereas true love is a love of beauty and order--temperate and harmonious?

Quite true, he said.

Then no intemperance or madness should be allowed to approach true love?

Certainly not.

[Sidenote: True love is free from sensuality and coarseness.]

*403B* Then mad or intemperate pleasure must never be allowed to come near

the lover and his beloved; neither of them can have any part in it if

their love is of the right sort?

No, indeed, Socrates, it must never come near them.

Then I suppose that in the city which we are founding you would make a law

to the effect that a friend should use no other familiarity to his love

than a father would use to his {90} son, and then only for a noble

purpose, and he must first have the other's consent; and this rule is to

limit him in *403C* all his intercourse, and he is never to be seen going

further, or, if he exceeds, he is to be deemed guilty of coarseness and

bad taste.

I quite agree, he said.

Thus much of music, which makes a fair ending; for what should be the end

of music if not the love of beauty?

I agree, he said.

[Sidenote: Gymnastic.]

After music comes gymnastic, in which our youth are next to be trained.

Certainly.

Gymnastic as well as music should begin in early years; the training in it

should be careful and should continue through life. *403D* Now my belief

is,--and this is a matter upon which I should like to have your opinion in

confirmation of my own, but my own belief is,--not that the good body by

any bodily excellence improves the soul, but, on the contrary, that the

good soul, by her own excellence, improves the body as far as this may be

possible. What do you say?

Yes, I agree.

[Sidenote: The body to be entrusted to the mind.]

Then, to the mind when adequately trained, we shall be right in handing

over the more particular care of the body; *403E* and in order to avoid

prolixity we will now only give the general outlines of the subject.

Very good.

That they must abstain from intoxication has been already remarked by us;

for of all persons a guardian should be the last to get drunk and not know

where in the world he is.

Yes, he said; that a guardian should require another guardian to take care

of him is ridiculous indeed.

But next, what shall we say of their food; for the men are in training for

the great contest of all--are they not?

Yes, he said.

*404A* And will the habit of body of our ordinary athletes be suited to

them?

Why not?

[Sidenote: The usual training of athletes too gross and sleepy.]

I am afraid, I said, that a habit of body such as they have is but a

sleepy sort of thing, and rather perilous to health. Do you not observe

that these athletes sleep away their {91} lives, and are liable to most

dangerous illnesses if they depart, in ever so slight a degree, from their

customary regimen?

Yes, I do.

Then, I said, a finer sort of training will be required for our warrior

athletes, who are to be like wakeful dogs, and to see and hear with the

utmost keenness; amid the many changes of water and also of food, of

summer heat and winter *404B* cold, which they will have to endure when on

a campaign, they must not be liable to break down in health.

That is my view.

The really excellent gymnastic is twin sister of that simple music which

we were just now describing.

How so?

[Sidenote: Military gymnastic.]

Why, I conceive that there is a gymnastic which, like our music, is simple

and good; and especially the military gymnastic.

What do you mean?

My meaning may be learned from Homer; he, you know, feeds his heroes at

their feasts, when they are campaigning, on soldiers' fare; they have no

fish, although they are on *404C* the shores of the Hellespont, and they

are not allowed boiled meats but only roast, which is the food most

convenient for soldiers, requiring only that they should light a fire, and

not involving the trouble of carrying about pots and pans.

True.

And I can hardly be mistaken in saying that sweet sauces are nowhere

mentioned in Homer. In proscribing them, however, he is not singular; all

professional athletes are well aware that a man who is to be in good

condition should take nothing of the kind.

Yes, he said; and knowing this, they are quite right in not taking them.

[Sidenote: Syracusan dinners and Corinthian courtezans are prohibited.]

*404D* Then you would not approve of Syracusan dinners, and the

refinements of Sicilian cookery?

I think not.

Nor, if a man is to be in condition, would you allow him to have a

Corinthian girl as his fair friend?

Certainly not. {92}

Neither would you approve of the delicacies, as they are thought, of

Athenian confectionary?

Certainly not.

[Sidenote: The luxurious style of living may be justly compared to the

panharmonic strain of music.]

All such feeding and living may be rightly compared by us *404E* to melody

and song composed in the panharmonic style, and in all the rhythms.

Exactly.

There complexity engendered licence, and here disease; whereas simplicity

in music was the parent of temperance in the soul; and simplicity in

gymnastic of health in the body.

Most true, he said.

*405A* But when intemperance and diseases multiply in a State, halls of

justice and medicine are always being opened; and the arts of the doctor

and the lawyer give themselves airs, finding how keen is the interest

which not only the slaves but the freemen of a city take about them.

Of course.

[Sidenote: Every man should be his own doctor and lawyer.]

And yet what greater proof can there be of a bad and disgraceful state of

education than this, that not only artisans and the meaner sort of people

need the skill of first-rate physicians and judges, but also those who

would profess to *405B* have had a liberal education? Is it not

disgraceful, and a great sign of want of good-breeding, that a man should

have to go abroad for his law and physic because he has none of his own at

home, and must therefore surrender himself into the hands of other men

whom he makes lords and judges over him?

Of all things, he said, the most disgraceful.

[Sidenote: Bad as it is to go to law, it is still worse to be a lover of

litigation.]

Would you say 'most,' I replied, when you consider that there is a further

stage of the evil in which a man is not only a life-long litigant, passing

all his days in the courts, either as plaintiff or defendant, but is

actually led by his bad taste to pride himself on his litigiousness; he

imagines that he is *405C* a master in dishonesty; able to take every

crooked turn, and wriggle into and out of every hole, bending like a withy

and getting out of the way of justice: and all for what?--in order to gain

small points not worth mentioning, he not knowing that so to order his

life as to be able to do without a napping judge is a far higher and

nobler sort of thing. Is not that still more disgraceful? {93}

Yes, he said, that is still more disgraceful.

[Sidenote: Bad also to require the help of medicine.]

Well, I said, and to require the help of medicine, not when a wound has to

be cured, or on occasion of an epidemic, but *405D* just because, by

indolence and a habit of life such as we have been describing, men fill

themselves with waters and winds, as if their bodies were a marsh,

compelling the ingenious sons of Asclepius to find more names for

diseases, such as flatulence and catarrh; is not this, too, a disgrace?

Yes, he said, they do certainly give very strange and newfangled names to

diseases.

[Sidenote: In the time of Asclepius and of Homer the practice of medicine

was very simple.]

Yes, I said, and I do not believe that there were any such *405E* diseases

in the days of Asclepius; and this I infer from the circumstance that the

hero Eurypylus, after he has been wounded in Homer, drinks a posset of

Pramnian wine well *406A* besprinkled with barley-meal and grated cheese,

which are certainly inflammatory, and yet the sons of Asclepius who were

at the Trojan war do not blame the damsel who gives him the drink, or

rebuke Patroclus, who is treating his case.

Well, he said, that was surely an extraordinary drink to be given to a

person in his condition.

[Sidenote: The nursing of disease began with Herodicus.]

Not so extraordinary, I replied, if you bear in mind that in former days,

as is commonly said, before the time of Herodicus, the guild of Asclepius

did not practise our present system of medicine, which may be said to

educate diseases. But Herodicus, being a trainer, and himself of a sickly

constitution, by a combination of training and doctoring found *406B* out

a way of torturing first and chiefly himself, and secondly the rest of the

world.

How was that? he said.

By the invention of lingering death; for he had a mortal disease which he

perpetually tended, and as recovery was out of the question, he passed his

entire life as a valetudinarian; he could do nothing but attend upon

himself, and he was in constant torment whenever he departed in anything

from his usual regimen, and so dying hard, by the help of science he

struggled on to old age.

A rare reward of his skill!

*406C* Yes, I said; a reward which a man might fairly expect who never

understood that, if Asclepius did not instruct his descendants in

valetudinarian arts, the omission arose, not {94} from ignorance or

inexperience of such a branch of medicine, but because he knew that in all

well-ordered states every individual has an occupation to which he must

attend, and has therefore no leisure to spend in continually being ill.

This we remark in the case of the artisan, but, ludicrously enough, do not

apply the same rule to people of the richer sort.

How do you mean? he said.

[Sidenote: The working-man has no time for tedious remedies.]

*406D* I mean this: When a carpenter is ill he asks the physician for a

rough and ready cure; an emetic or a purge or a cautery or the knife,

--these are his remedies. And if some one prescribes for him a course of

dietetics, and tells him that he must swathe and swaddle his head, and all

that sort of thing, he replies at once that he has no time to be ill, and

that he sees no good in a life which is spent in nursing his disease to

the neglect of his customary employment; and therefore *406E* bidding

good-bye to this sort of physician, he resumes his ordinary habits, and

either gets well and lives and does his business, or, if his constitution

fails, he dies and has no more trouble.

Yes, he said, and a man in his condition of life ought to use the art of

medicine thus far only.

*407A* Has he not, I said, an occupation; and what profit would there be

in his life if he were deprived of his occupation?

Quite true, he said.

But with the rich man this is otherwise; of him we do not say that he has

any specially appointed work which he must perform, if he would live.

He is generally supposed to have nothing to do.

Then you never heard of the saying of Phocylides, that as soon as a man

has a livelihood he should practise virtue?

Nay, he said, I think that he had better begin somewhat sooner.

[Sidenote: The slow cure equally an impediment to the mechanical arts, to

the practice of virtue]

Let us not have a dispute with him about this, I said; but rather ask

ourselves: Is the practice of virtue obligatory on *407B* the rich man, or

can he live without it? And if obligatory on him, then let us raise a

further question, whether this dieting of disorders, which is an

impediment to the application of the mind in carpentering and the

mechanical arts, does not equally stand in the way of the sentiment of

Phocylides? {95}

Of that, he replied, there can be no doubt; such excessive care of the

body, when carried beyond the rules of gymnastic, is most inimical to the

practice of virtue.

[Sidenote: and to any kind of study or thought.]

[38]Yes, indeed, I replied, and equally incompatible with the management

of a house, an army, or an office of state; and, what is most important of

all, irreconcileable with any kind *407C* of study or thought or

self-reflection--there is a constant suspicion that headache and giddiness

are to be ascribed to philosophy, and hence all practising or making trial

of virtue in the higher sense is absolutely stopped; for a man is always

fancying that he is being made ill, and is in constant anxiety about the

state of his body.

[Footnote 38: Making the answer of Socrates begin at [Greek: kai\ ga\r

pro\s k.t.l.]]

Yes, likely enough.

[Sidenote: Asclepius would not cure diseased constitutions because they

were of no use to the State.]

And therefore our politic Asclepius may be supposed to have exhibited the

power of his art only to persons who, being generally of healthy

constitution and habits of life, had *407D* a definite ailment; such as

these he cured by purges and operations, and bade them live as usual,

herein consulting the interests of the State; but bodies which disease had

penetrated through and through he would not have attempted to cure by

gradual processes of evacuation and infusion: he did not want to lengthen

out good-for-nothing lives, or to have weak fathers begetting weaker

sons;--if a man was not able to live in the ordinary way he had no

business to cure him; *407E* for such a cure would have been of no use

either to himself, or to the State.

Then, he said, you regard Asclepius as a statesman.

[Sidenote: The case of Menelaus, who was attended by the sons of

Asclepius.]

Clearly; and his character is further illustrated by his sons. *408A* Note

that they were heroes in the days of old and practised the medicines of

which I am speaking at the siege of Troy: You will remember how, when

Pandarus wounded Menelaus, they

'Sucked the blood out of the wound, and sprinkled soothing

remedies[39],'

but they never prescribed what the patient was afterwards to eat or drink

in the case of Menelaus, any more than in the case of Eurypylus; the

remedies, as they conceived, were enough to heal any man who before he was

wounded was {96} *408B* healthy and regular in his habits; and even though

he did happen to drink a posset of Pramnian wine, he might get well all

the same. But they would have nothing to do with unhealthy and intemperate

subjects, whose lives were of no use either to themselves or others; the

art of medicine was not designed for their good, and though they were as

rich as Midas, the sons of Asclepius would have declined to attend them.

[Footnote 39: Iliad iv. 218.]

They were very acute persons, those sons of Asclepius.

[Sidenote: The offence of Asclepius.]

Naturally so, I replied. Nevertheless, the tragedians and Pindar

disobeying our behests, although they acknowledge that Asclepius was the

son of Apollo, say also that he was bribed into healing a rich man who was

at the point of *408C* death, and for this reason he was struck by

lightning. But we, in accordance with the principle already affirmed by

us, will not believe them when they tell us both;--if he was the son of a

god, we maintain that he was not avaricious; or, if he was avaricious, he

was not the son of a god.

All that, Socrates, is excellent; but I should like to put a question to

you: Ought there not to be good physicians in a State, and are not the

best those who have treated the *408D* greatest number of constitutions

good and bad? and are not the best judges in like manner those who are

acquainted with all sorts of moral natures?

Yes, I said, I too would have good judges and good physicians. But do you

know whom I think good?

Will you tell me?

I will, if I can. Let me however note that in the same question you join

two things which are not the same.

How so? he asked.

[Sidenote: The physician should have experience of illness in his own

person;]

Why, I said, you join physicians and judges. Now the most skilful

physicians are those who, from their youth upwards, have combined with the

knowledge of their art *408E* the greatest experience of disease; they had

better not be robust in health, and should have had all manner of diseases

in their own persons. For the body, as I conceive, is not the instrument

with which they cure the body; in that case we could not allow them ever

to be or to have been sickly; but they cure the body with the mind, and

the mind which has become and is sick can cure nothing. {97}

That is very true, he said.

[Sidenote: on the other hand, the judge should not learn to know evil by

the practice of it, but by long observation of evil in others.]

*409A* But with the judge it is otherwise; since he governs mind by mind;

he ought not therefore to have been trained among vicious minds, and to

have associated with them from youth upwards, and to have gone through the

whole calendar of crime, only in order that he may quickly infer the

crimes of others as he might their bodily diseases from his own

self-consciousness; the honourable mind which is to form a healthy

judgment should have had no experience or contamination of evil habits

when young. And this is the reason why in youth good men often appear to

be simple, and are *409B* easily practised upon by the dishonest, because

they have no examples of what evil is in their own souls.

Yes, he said, they are far too apt to be deceived.

Therefore, I said, the judge should not be young; he should have learned

to know evil, not from his own soul, but from late and long observation of

the nature of evil in others: *409C* knowledge should be his guide, not

personal experience.

Yes, he said, that is the ideal of a judge.

[Sidenote: Such a knowledge of human nature far better and truer than that

of the adept in crime.]

Yes, I replied, and he will be a good man (which is my answer to your

question); for he is good who has a good soul. But the cunning and

suspicious nature of which we spoke,--he who has committed many crimes,

and fancies himself to be a master in wickedness, when he is amongst his

fellows, is wonderful in the precautions which he takes, because he judges

of them by himself: but when he gets into the company of men of virtue,

who have the experience of age, he appears to be a fool again, owing to

his unseasonable suspicions; *409D* he cannot recognise an honest man,

because he has no pattern of honesty in himself; at the same time, as the

bad are more numerous than the good, and he meets with them oftener, he

thinks himself, and is by others thought to be, rather wise than foolish.

Most true, he said.

Then the good and wise judge whom we are seeking is not this man, but the

other; for vice cannot know virtue too, but a virtuous nature, educated by

time, will acquire a knowledge *409E* both of virtue and vice: the

virtuous, and not the vicious, man has wisdom--in my opinion.

And in mine also. {98}

This is the sort of medicine, and this is the sort of law, which you will

sanction in your state. They will minister to *410A* better natures,

giving health both of soul and of body; but those who are diseased in

their bodies they will leave to die, and the corrupt and incurable souls

they will put an end to themselves.

That is clearly the best thing both for the patients and for the State.

And thus our youth, having been educated only in that simple music which,

as we said, inspires temperance, will be reluctant to go to law.

Clearly.

*410B* And the musician, who, keeping to the same track, is content to

practise the simple gymnastic, will have nothing to do with medicine

unless in some extreme case.

That I quite believe.

The very exercises and tolls which he undergoes are intended to stimulate

the spirited element of his nature, and not to increase his strength; he

will not, like common athletes, use exercise and regimen to develope his

muscles.

Very right, he said.

[Sidenote: Music and gymnastic are equally designed for the improvement of

the mind.]

*410C* Neither are the two arts of music and gymnastic really designed, as

is often supposed, the one for the training of the soul, the other for the

training of the body.

What then is the real object of them?

I believe, I said, that the teachers of both have in view chiefly the

improvement of the soul.

How can that be? he asked.

Did you never observe, I said, the effect on the mind itself of exclusive

devotion to gymnastic, or the opposite effect of an exclusive devotion to

music?

In what way shown? he said.

[Sidenote: The mere athlete must be softened, and the philosophic nature

prevented from becoming too soft]

*410D* The one producing a temper of hardness and ferocity, the other of

softness and effeminacy, I replied.

Yes, he said, I am quite aware that the mere athlete becomes too much of a

savage, and that the mere musician is melted and softened beyond what is

good for him.

Yet surely, I said, this ferocity only comes from spirit, which, if

rightly educated, would give courage, but, if too much intensified, is

liable to become hard and brutal. {99}

That I quite think.

*410E* On the other hand the philosopher will have the quality of

gentleness. And this also, when too much indulged, will turn to softness,

but, if educated rightly, will be gentle and moderate.

True.

And in our opinion the guardians ought to have both these qualities?

Assuredly.

And both should be in harmony?

Beyond question.

*411A* And the harmonious soul is both temperate and courageous?

Yes.

And the inharmonious is cowardly and boorish?

Very true.

[Sidenote: Music, if carried too far, renders the weaker nature

effeminate, the stronger irritable.]

And, when a man allows music to play upon him and to pour into his soul

through the funnel of his ears those sweet and soft and melancholy airs of

which we were just now speaking, and his whole life is passed in warbling

and the delights of song; in the first stage of the process the passion or

spirit which is in him is tempered like iron, and made *411B* useful,

instead of brittle and useless. But, if he carries on the softening and

soothing process, in the next stage he begins to melt and waste, until he

has wasted away his spirit and cut out the sinews of his soul; and he

becomes a feeble warrior.

Very true.

If the element of spirit is naturally weak in him the change is speedily

accomplished, but if he have a good deal, then the power of music

weakening the spirit renders him excitable;--on the least provocation he

flames up at once, and is *411C* speedily extinguished; instead of having

spirit he grows irritable and passionate and is quite impracticable.

Exactly.

[Sidenote: And in like manner the well-fed athlete, if he have no

education,]

And so in gymnastics, if a man takes violent exercise and is a great

feeder, and the reverse of a great student of music and philosophy, at

first the high condition of his body fills him with pride and spirit, and

he becomes twice the man that he was. {100}

Certainly.

[Sidenote: degenerates into a wild beast.]

And what happens? if he do nothing else, and holds no *411D* converse with

the Muses, does not even that intelligence which there may be in him,

having no taste of any sort of learning or enquiry or thought or culture,

grow feeble and dull and blind, his mind never waking up or receiving

nourishment, and his senses not being purged of their mists?

True, he said.

And he ends by becoming a hater of philosophy, uncivilized, never using

the weapon of persuasion,--he is like a wild *411E* beast, all violence

and fierceness, and knows no other way of dealing; and he lives in all

ignorance and evil conditions, and has no sense of propriety and grace.

That is quite true, he said.

And as there are two principles of human nature, one the spirited and the

other the philosophical, some God, as I should say, has given mankind two

arts answering to them (and only indirectly to the soul and body), in

order that these *412A* two principles (like the strings of an instrument)

may be relaxed or drawn tighter until they are duly harmonized.

That appears to be the intention.

[Sidenote: Music to be mingled with gymnastic, and both attempered to the

individual soul.]

And he who mingles music with gymnastic in the fairest proportions, and

best attempers them to the soul, may be rightly called the true musician

and harmonist in a far higher sense than the tuner of the strings.

You are quite right, Socrates.

And such a presiding genius will be always required in our State if the

government is to last.

*412B* Yes, he will be absolutely necessary.

[Sidenote: Enough of principles of education: who are to be our rulers?]

Such, then, are our principles of nurture and education: Where would be

the use of going into further details about the dances of our citizens, or

about their hunting and coursing, their gymnastic and equestrian contests?

For these all follow the general principle, and having found that, we

shall have no difficulty in discovering them.

I dare say that there will be no difficulty.

Very good, I said; then what is the next question? Must we not ask who are

to be rulers and who subjects?

*412C* Certainly.

[Sidenote: The elder must rule and the younger serve.]

There can be no doubt that the elder must rule the younger. {101}

Clearly.

And that the best of these must rule.

That is also clear.

Now, are not the best husbandmen those who are most devoted to husbandry?

Yes.

And as we are to have the best of guardians for our city, must they not be

those who have most the character of guardians?

Yes.

And to this end they ought to be wise and efficient, and to have a special

care of the State?

*412D* True.

[Sidenote: Those are to be appointed rulers who have been tested in all

the stages of their life;]

And a man will be most likely to care about that which he loves?

To be sure.

And he will be most likely to love that which he regards as having the

same interests with himself, and that of which the good or evil fortune is

supposed by him at any time most to affect his own?

Very true, he replied.

Then there must be a selection. Let us note among the guardians those who

in their whole life show the greatest *412E* eagerness to do what is for

the good of their country, and the greatest repugnance to do what is

against her interests.

Those are the right men.

And they will have to be watched at every age, in order that we may see

whether they preserve their resolution, and never, under the influence

either of force or enchantment, forget or cast off their sense of duty to

the State.

How cast off? he said.

I will explain to you, I replied. A resolution may go out of a man's mind

either with his will or against his will; with *413A* his will when he

gets rid of a falsehood and learns better, against his will whenever he is

deprived of a truth.

I understand, he said, the willing loss of a resolution; the meaning of

the unwilling I have yet to learn.

Why, I said, do you not see that men are unwillingly deprived of good, and

willingly of evil? Is not to have lost the truth an evil, and to possess

the truth a good? and you {102} would agree that to conceive things as

they are is to possess the truth?

Yes, he replied; I agree with you in thinking that mankind are deprived of

truth against their will.

*413B* And is not this involuntary deprivation caused either by theft, or

force, or enchantment?

Still, he replied, I do not understand you.

[Sidenote: and who are unchanged by the influence either of pleasure, or

of fear,]

I fear that I must have been talking darkly, like the tragedians. I only

mean that some men are changed by persuasion and that others forget;

argument steals away the hearts of one class, and time of the other; and

this I call theft. Now you understand me?

Yes.

Those again who are forced, are those whom the violence of some pain or

grief compels to change their opinion.

I understand, he said, and you are quite right.

[Sidenote: or of enchantments.]

*413C* And you would also acknowledge that the enchanted are those who

change their minds either under the softer influence of pleasure, or the

sterner influence of fear?

Yes, he said; everything that deceives may be said to enchant.

Therefore, as I was just now saying, we must enquire who are the best

guardians of their own conviction that what they think the interest of the

State is to be the rule of their lives. We must watch them from their

youth upwards, and make them perform actions in which they are most likely

to forget or to be deceived, and he who remembers and is not deceived

*413D* is to be selected, and he who fails in the trial is to be rejected.

That will be the way?

Yes.

And there should also be toils and pains and conflicts prescribed for

them, in which they will be made to give further proof of the same

qualities.

Very right, he replied.

[Sidenote: If they stand the test they are to be honoured in life and

after death.]

And then, I said, we must try them with enchantments--that is the third

sort of test--and see what will be their behaviour: like those who take

colts amid noise and tumult to see if they are of a timid nature, so must

we take our youth amid terrors of some kind, and again pass them into

pleasures, *413E* and prove them more thoroughly than gold is {103} proved

in the furnace, that we may discover whether they are armed against all

enchantments, and of a noble bearing always, good guardians of themselves

and of the music which they have learned, and retaining under all

circumstances a rhythmical and harmonious nature, such as will be most

serviceable to the individual and to the State. And he who at every age,

as boy and youth and in mature life, has come out of the trial victorious

and pure, shall be appointed *414A* a ruler and guardian of the State; he

shall be honoured in life and death, and shall receive sepulture and other

memorials of honour, the greatest that we have to give. But him who fails,

we must reject. I am inclined to think that this is the sort of way in

which our rulers and guardians should be chosen and appointed. I speak

generally, and not with any pretension to exactness.

And, speaking generally, I agree with you, he said.

[Sidenote: The title of guardians to be reserved for the elders, the young

men to be called auxiliaries.]

*414B* And perhaps the word 'guardian' in the fullest sense ought to be

applied to this higher class only who preserve us against foreign enemies

and maintain peace among our citizens at home, that the one may not have

the will, or the others the power, to harm us. The young men whom we

before called guardians may be more properly designated auxiliaries and

supporters of the principles of the rulers.

I agree with you, he said.

How then may we devise one of those needful falsehoods of which we lately

spoke--just one royal lie which may *414C* deceive the rulers, if that be

possible, and at any rate the rest of the city?

What sort of lie? he said.

[Sidenote: The Phoenician tale.]

Nothing new, I replied; only an old Phoenician[40] tale of what has often

occurred before now in other places, (as the poets say, and have made the

world believe) though not in our time, and I do not know whether such an

event could ever happen again, or could now even be made probable, if it

did.

[Footnote 40: Cp. Laws, 663 E.]

How your words seem to hesitate on your lips!

You will not wonder, I replied, at my hesitation when you have heard.

Speak, he said, and fear not. {104}

[Sidenote: The citizens to be told that they are really autochthonous,

sent up out of the earth,]

*414D* Well then, I will speak, although I really know not how to look you

in the face, or in what words to utter the audacious fiction, which

I propose to communicate gradually, first to the rulers, then to the

soldiers, and lastly to the people. They are to be told that their youth

was a dream, and the education and training which they received from us,

an appearance only; in reality during all that time they were being formed

and fed in the womb of the earth, where they *414E* themselves and their

arms and appurtenances were manufactured; when they were completed, the

earth, their mother, sent them up; and so, their country being their

mother and also their nurse, they are bound to advise for her good, and to

defend her against attacks, and her citizens they are to regard as

children of the earth and their own brothers.

You had good reason, he said, to be ashamed of the lie which you were

going to tell.

[Sidenote: and composed of metals of various quality.]

[Sidenote: The noble quality to rise in the State, the ignoble to

descend.]

*415A* True, I replied, but there is more coming; I have only told you

half. Citizens, we shall say to them in our tale, you are brothers, yet

God has framed you differently. Some of you have the power of command, and

in the composition of these he has mingled gold, wherefore also they have

the greatest honour; others he has made of silver, to be auxiliaries;

others again who are to be husbandmen and craftsmen he has composed of

brass and iron; and the species will generally be preserved in the

children. But as all are of the same original stock, a golden parent will

sometimes have a *415B* silver son, or a silver parent a golden son. And

God proclaims as a first principle to the rulers, and above all else, that

there is nothing which they should so anxiously guard, or of which they

are to be such good guardians, as of the purity of the race. They should

observe what elements mingle in their offspring; for if the son of a

golden or silver parent has an admixture of brass and iron, then nature

orders *415C* a transposition of ranks, and the eye of the ruler must not

be pitiful towards the child because he has to descend in the scale and

become a husbandman or artisan, just as there may be sons of artisans who

having an admixture of gold or silver in them are raised to honour, and

become guardians or auxiliaries. For an oracle says that when a man of

brass or iron guards the State, it will be destroyed. Such is the {105}

tale; is there any possibility of making our citizens believe in it?

[Sidenote: Is such a fiction credible?--Yes, in a future generation; not

in the present.]

*415D* Not in the present generation, he replied; there is no way of

accomplishing this; but their sons may be made to believe in the tale, and

their sons' sons, and posterity after them.

[Sidenote: The selection of a site for the warriors' camp.]

I see the difficulty, I replied; yet the fostering of such a belief will

make them care more for the city and for one another. Enough, however, of

the fiction, which may now fly abroad upon the wings of rumour, while we

arm our earth-born heroes, and lead them forth under the command of their

rulers. Let them look round and select a spot whence they can best

suppress insurrection, if any prove refractory *415E* within, and also

defend themselves against enemies, who like wolves may come down on the

fold from without; there let them encamp, and when they have encamped, let

them sacrifice to the proper Gods and prepare their dwellings.

Just so, he said.

And their dwellings must be such as will shield them against the cold of

winter and the heat of summer.

I suppose that you mean houses, he replied.

Yes, I said; but they must be the houses of soldiers, and not of

shop-keepers.

What is the difference? he said.

[Sidenote: The warriors must be humanized by education.]

*416A* That I will endeavour to explain, I replied. To keep watch-dogs,

who, from want of discipline or hunger, or some evil habit or other, would

turn upon the sheep and worry them, and behave not like dogs but wolves,

would be a foul and monstrous thing in a shepherd?

Truly monstrous, he said.

*416B* And therefore every care must be taken that our auxiliaries, being

stronger than our citizens, may not grow to be too much for them and

become savage tyrants instead of friends and allies?

Yes, great care should be taken.

And would not a really good education furnish the best safeguard?

But they are well-educated already, he replied.

I cannot be so confident, my dear Glaucon, I said; I am much more certain

that they ought to be, and that true *416C* education, whatever that may

be, will have the greatest {106} tendency to civilize and humanize them in

their relations to one another, and to those who are under their

protection.

Very true, he replied.

And not only their education, but their habitations, and all that belongs

to them, should be such as will neither impair their virtue as guardians,

nor tempt them to prey upon the other citizens. *416D* Any man of sense

must acknowledge that.

He must.

[Sidenote: Their way of life will be that of a camp]

[Sidenote: They must have no homes or property of their own.]

Then now let us consider what will be their way of life, if they are to

realize our idea of them. In the first place, none of them should have any

property of his own beyond what is absolutely necessary; neither should

they have a private house or store closed against any one who has a mind

to enter; their provisions should be only such as are required by trained

warriors, who are men of temperance and courage; *416E* they should agree

to receive from the citizens a fixed rate of pay, enough to meet the

expenses of the year and no more; and they will go to mess and live

together like soldiers in a camp. Gold and silver we will tell them that

they have from God; the diviner metal is within them, and they have

therefore no need of the dross which is current among men, and ought not

to pollute the divine by any *417A* such earthly admixture; for that

commoner metal has been the source of many unholy deeds, but their own is

undefiled. And they alone of all the citizens may not touch or handle

silver or gold, or be under the same roof with them, or wear them, or

drink from them. And this will be their salvation, and they will be the

saviours of the State. But should they ever acquire homes or lands or

moneys of their own, they will become housekeepers and husbandmen instead

of guardians, *417B* enemies and tyrants instead of allies of the other

citizens; hating and being hated, plotting and being plotted against, they

will pass their whole life in much greater terror of internal than of

external enemies, and the hour of ruin, both to themselves and to the rest

of the State, will be at hand. For all which reasons may we not say that

thus shall our State be ordered, and that these shall be the regulations

appointed by us for guardians concerning their houses and all other

matters?

Yes, said Glaucon.